On Ep. 1 of Stablecoin Stats, Anthony Yim, Co-Founder @ Artemis and Andrew Van Aken, Data Scientist @ Artemis discuss the onchain data behind Circle’s giga IPO, tron’s stablecoin impact and more!
On Ep. 1 of Stablecoin Stats, Anthony Yim, Co-Founder @ Artemis and Andrew Van Aken, Data Scientist @ Artemis discuss the onchain data behind Circle’s giga IPO, tron’s stablecoin impact and more!
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This episode is brought to you by Visa
A world leader in digital payments, Visa is bridging the gap between traditional financial institutions and innovative blockchain networks, helping players in the payments ecosystem navigate the ever-evolving world of tokenized fiat currencies with confidence and ease. Learn more at visa.com/crypto.
This podcast is powered by Artemis
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We’d also like to remind you that the views or opinions of our contributors today are their own and do not necessarily reflect those of the companies they are representing. Nothing we say should be taken as tax, financial, investment or legal advice, do your own research!
Music by Henry McLean
Andrew Van Anken 00:00
We've heard a lot about stable coins for payments, stable coins for remittances. And while we've seen that market grow a lot, really, the bet on circle right now is, or at least it's this growth of defi, almost the stock itself represents how much USDC will be in defi and how big defi will become over time, and especially now that people are saying, oh, let's tokenize equities. Let's token all these things will be they traded on chain if they could settle in USDC, that could be potentially huge for the company.
Anthony Yim 00:40
Welcome to tokenized. The show focused on stable coins and the institutional adoption of tokenized real world assets. You might be thinking, Wait, am I on the right podcast feed or YouTube channel? Don't worry, you are. You're just hearing a new voice and seeing a new face. My name is Anthony Yim, co founder of Artemis, a crypto analytics startup. Before Artemis, I was one of the early engineers of Venmo, and built and scaled Venmo to over 150 million users. And today, I like to welcome you to stablecoin stats, a monthly show on the tokenized podcast dedicated to the stats behind stablecoin market. Joining me today is my colleague and friend, Andrew Van Atkin, data scientist at Artemis, welcome.
Andrew Van Anken 01:27
Thank you for that kind intro, and I don't recognize the background behind you. Are you? Are you sitting somewhere new today?
Anthony Yim 01:33
Yes, very exciting news. We have officially gone our insurance for a new office, and we are moved in as of two hours ago,
Andrew Van Anken 01:43
and everything was smooth, right? No hiccups. You're on Wi Fi or not? Yes,
Anthony Yim 01:48
everything is extremely smooth, except for the fact that the toilet seats are broken, the Wi Fi is not working, and none of us were allowed up the elevator this morning because we didn't have access. Yeah, the usual, usual startup stuff. Oh, it's
Andrew Van Anken 02:01
a good thing. We're not an internet based data company, so that's good.
Anthony Yim 02:04
So how was your weekend? Nothing happened in stablecoin land. Last week, you know,
Andrew Van Anken 02:09
nothing scaffolding the stablecoin world. No companies went public. There was no fanfare. The IPO was not underpriced. It was all just smooth sailing. Of course, we're joking, if you miss it, circle file for an IPO at $31 a share, and then it can quickly trade up, because the market literally could not open until the bid ask spread was determined around, I believe it was around 70 or so, and now I believe it's trading around 120 so exciting times in stablecoin world,
Anthony Yim 02:36
yeah, I believe NYC halted trading three times in The first day. This is actually a first time I've ever heard of exchanges halting due to how quickly the price is going up. Maybe that tells you how many recessions I've gone through. But I've only heard of the exchanges halting when something's trading down. So much. Lots of
Andrew Van Anken 02:55
beauty about crypto. You know, things never get halted. People just keep trading on we keep marching upwards. That's true. Did you expect it to be so extravagant?
Anthony Yim 03:04
I did not, but my co founder, did. We actually built this is shout out to our little financial model that we built. And I think people misunderestimated how much supply circle gained in the last six months. And really, if you look at its supply, the amount of interest, revenue they're making, the multiple is definitely high, but it's not insanely high. And I think if you assume that circle continue to dominate these more traditional if they partner up with Visa, they partner with these traditional banks, they continue to operate United States and increase their market share here. I think they can grow into their market cap. It's not insane. Obviously, the circle is being traded for its future. I think promises and future earnings.
Andrew Van Anken 03:50
Well, if city projections of trillions of dollars of stable coins are true, then the tokenized podcast will exist for many years to come. So cheers to that.
Anthony Yim 03:58
Cheers Cool. Well, shall we dive into this month's topics? Let's do it. Let's do it. A quick disclaimer before we get into things, I need to remind you that the views or opinions of our contributors today are their own and do not necessarily reflect those other companies they're representing. Nothing we say should be taken as tax, financial, investment or legal advice. Do your own research. And lastly, before we get into the stats, I'm thrilled to remind you that this podcast is made possible by Visa and powered by Artemis. So of course, this week's and this month's star company we want to focus on is circle. They had a big IPO. And today, of course, we're doing a USDC Deep Dive. Circle's IPO has exploded out of the gates and isn't through public markets with ferocity.
Andrew Van Anken 04:50
So you would say the market likes stable coins. Is that fair to say
Anthony Yim 04:53
the market really likes stable coins, and it really likes Jeremy Allaire and circle and what they're doing? Yeah. I mean, really. And the future of circles growth. And I think you have a lot of cool metrics today about USDC, yeah.
Andrew Van Anken 05:07
So let's kind of like, understand and take a step back of where circle started, and kind of like, what is USDC used for in the ecosystem? So if you're listening at home right now, we're showing a chart of USDC supply growth over time, essentially how much USDC is available right now. And so during what we call like the bull run of defi days, USDC spiked at around like $50 billion or so, and then really got killed during the bear and fell all the way down to almost $20 billion outstanding, which was driven by a lot of different factors, such as the No one will forget the day that Silicon Valley Bank went under. I think I had started a new job, and I was five days in the job, and I was at a venture capital firm that said, hey, our banks going under. Oh, great. That's a great way to have a Friday. So since crypto prices have rebounded, USDC right now, actually almost it's at an all time high of around $60 billion so the big question is, what is driving the supply and what entities are holding different stable coins? So before we go to the next slide, Anthony, can you guess what the biggest drivers of USDC are?
Anthony Yim 06:16
I would guess defi. I would think USDC is I understand it as the collateral of choice in a lot of defi. But I think before there, I do want to, like point out what a momentous occasion this is that circle has sort of reached some all time high, because I think for the longest time, especially as post FTX and everything, they were really losing a lot of market share and in terms of supply to tether. But I haven't seen these charts yet, actually, until right now. And I think that the that ramp in the last three months is incredible.
Andrew Van Anken 06:54
They must be doing something right. So what's interesting is that one of the biggest drivers for circle in the last eight months or so has been really binance. So back in January 2024, during the sort of like the lulls of crypto, there wasn't really a lot of USDC on binance, so only about a billion dollars or so. But as year grew on, it's grew slightly. And then circle actually announced a partnership with binance, which absolutely exploded in terms of supply. So now that we estimate there's about possibly $9 billion of USDC sitting on binance Right now, which which is a lot, especially for an exchange that is dominated by tether pair trading. So the majority of crypto trading on binance happens within tether and so there's really this demand for USDC on these offshore exchanges. And then look at that. Look at how correct you are. The other top three drivers of USDC in the past year has been Athena and hyper liquid. It seems like people want yield and people want
Anthony Yim 07:53
leverage. I think the ramp up in USDC and binance is incredible. I mean, looking at this, it's like a 9x increase. And I think, like, you know, I think a lot of hesitation around the circle IPO is around also, just like the sheer amount of dependency that circle has on Coinbase. So it's really interesting to see them, like diversifying out of, out of binance and also diversifying out of the United States. I mean, that's, that's big. They're entering sort of enemy territory, right? Like tether is known as the stablecoin of choice for BRICS, ex United States and ex Europe countries, but and binance is sort of the Coinbase of these countries, and seeing sort of circle take a bite out of tethers home field is interesting. Yeah, I think
Andrew Van Anken 08:39
it's especially interesting because we've heard a lot about stable coins for payments, stable coins for remittances. And while we've seen that market grow a lot, really, the bet on circle right now is, or at least it's, this growth of defi, almost the stock itself represents how much USDC will be in defi and how big defi will become over time, and especially now that people are saying, let's tokenize equities, let's token all these things will be they traded on chain, if they could settle in USDC, that could be potentially huge for the company. One thing we want to point out, though, is when we look at where the largest amount of USD sits right now, it's important to note that Coinbase, historically, does a very good job of trying to hide how much money they have on their exchange. And for good reason, because centralized exchanges are very much honey pots in which people can try and hack an exchange and pull money out of it. But we know from regulatory findings that Coinbase has about 20% of the USD supply right now. So for those listening on the go right now, we're looking at who is the largest holders of USDC as of this past month, and we clearly see Coinbase and binance, Coinbase with about 12 point 2 billion USDC and binance with about 8.6 so right about there, you have about 1/3 of all USDC. How. Than these centralized exchanges. From there, it's a huge drop off. So hyper liquid maker Dao Athena, what we're calling Gnosis safes, or these Ethereum like products that serve as vaults, essentially. But what you can really tell here is that really the largest drivers, and what people are using circle for the most is defi applications and really crypto trading as a whole. And so it's very interesting to see that defi has been growing over the last few months, and really, this hyper liquid once they drop their token, it's been really, it's accelerated trading volumes and circles, really that benefiting
Anthony Yim 10:34
from this. Wow. I mean, yeah, again, for the audience who are listening at home, does this graph exhibit just crazy like power law effects, you can see really centralized, like, something like, I think just eyeballing, that's why 70% of supply sits on centralized exchanges. I feel like, if you ask, like, a you pull a congressman aside or something, and you ask them, hey, like, what percent of stable coins do you think is, you know, on defi? They'll probably like, Oh yeah, it's mostly on defi. But really, most supplies is in these, like, pretty regulated entities like Coinbase and poibiz is a public company.
Andrew Van Anken 11:09
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's hard to say what people are doing with these stable coins when they sit on exchange. It possibly could be, you know, holding to escape from inflation crypto trading, possibly even just earning a better yield Coinbase pays a pretty good yield on USDC. So there's certainly a lot of different use cases for just having, you know, just being able to hold one stable coin you can do it opens you up to many different things within the blockchain ecosystem. And so really, to hammer this point home about defi, and I think one of the things the market, once again, really kind of misunderstands, is what the USDC dominance in defi looks like. So to really drive home this point, we're looking at of all the stable coins that sit in defi. Which stable coin is most dominant in the defi setting. And we can actually see that circles. USDC accounts for about 50% of all the stable coins in defi, and so tether is actually a lot less. Tether is only between about 10 and 15% utilized in defi. And there's also a lot of other stable coins as well. We're not going to go on the whole laundry list of hundreds of other stable coins exist that for various defi purposes. But really, since 2024 circle has done a really good job of pushing stablecoins into defi and really almost crowding everybody out. So this really drives the point home about how much of circle is really dominated in defi. And to really drive home a real world example of this, you see companies like maple finance, and maple finance offers almost like private credit, like opportunities for investors. So if you have USDC, you can deposit it into many different maple finance pools, which then get distributed to different, almost private credit esque opportunities. And you can see here that starting in March of last year, the gap between USDC and tether has exploded. So what we're looking here is about in early 2023 there was about roughly between 60 million of USDC versus 20 million of usdt on Maple now there's about close to three, 50 million of USDC and just under 50 million of usdt on Maple finance. So it's interesting that the defi market is kind of like looking at circle as almost the preferred coin for defi activities. And this is just another point to sort of like illustrate how recent demand has taken off. Now that we know that where circle dominates in the landscape, let's look at where other possible opportunities are. So this is what we're showing. Here is data from our recent survey with Castle Island ventures and dragonfly, where we looked at of payments companies and of payments companies facilitating b to b, b to c, p to p transfers. What stable coin are these companies using? And here you can see almost the flip side, tether is almost used in 85% plus of these types of transactions, while USDC is only 15% and so when we got this data back, Anthony did this surprise you at all?
Anthony Yim 14:13
No, not at all. I think just anecdotally, as I was talking to these 31 different stablecoin companies that are, you know, we were including in this report, almost universally, everyone was just saying how deep and liquidity is on tether and that like it's also oftentimes the cheapest, by far in terms of payments. And so I think for me, this graph really confirms what a lot of us and stablecoin payments and stablecoins have always known, but like, didn't have empirical evidence to prove.
Andrew Van Anken 14:45
How do you think circles should fix this problem? What types of steps do you think they should take?
Anthony Yim 14:50
Yeah, that's a great question, because I think it's easy to take a report and assume that, you know, oh, tethers, like, won the market, or, like, it's two. Made for circle. But I think that is the incorrect conclusion to take away from from our report. The reason being, I think again, back to this interviewer's dilemma. Thing that I talked about earlier, I think tether is an incredible disruptor. Obviously, you respect their team a ton. I think they will continue to win in many, many dimensions. But I think circle's business model just takes more time to mature. And I think the way that circle should sort of make a dent in payments is by at the very least, right? It's necessary but insufficient. At the very least, provide a lot more liquidity at the on and off ramps for all the different markets that need payments the most, because that is the number one reason why people choose tether is that, hey, look, I want to like on ramp and off ramp a large amount. And really the only currency that can that has enough liquidity such that you're not like moving the markets when you, when you, when you do a swap is, you know, between on Fiat and stable coin and vice versa, is tether. And so, like, you really have no other option people. People choose tether because there's literally no other option and and, you know, the thing that we know circle is really good at is building relationships, giving relationships with banks like Jeremy Allaire should talk to these. I'm sure he's already doing that, right? It's like, but it takes time to to actually put dollars, I think, to some of these, like large geo corridors, for example. Yeah,
Andrew Van Anken 16:24
exactly. And definitely want to give respect due to tether, who for more than almost a decade now has been, yeah, building these relationships on the ground, country by country, off ramp provider by off ramp provider, to really provide that liquidity. And so it's certainly something that doesn't happen overnight. You really need to send people to the ground, to these over the counter little kiosks to really drive liquidity home. So yeah, props to tether.
Anthony Yim 16:51
So shall we talk a bit about market overview and growth? Andrew, yeah,
Andrew Van Anken 16:56
let's see what's happening in the world of stablecoins. And to no one's surprise, stable coins keep keep going up. And so here, for the listeners at home, we're looking at a slide that shows stable coin growth, really, since the beginning of of stable coin circulation. And so you can see stable coins this month hit yet another high, closing in on two $50 billion in supply, up a pretty astonishing 47% year over year, and we can see that mostly driven by two different chains. So really, Tron and Ethereum are driving lots of volume. I wish I could say that this has been a surprise, but it's really not. It's something that we've seen time and time again, of these two chains really driving most of the stable coin supply. Let's dive into what are we seeing in the stable coin market, and what does the data look like? And the most basic stat that we can look at is how much stable coins are in existence. And so this past month, we've hit yet another high, two $50 billion in supply closing up on it. Stable coin supply is up almost 47% year over year, and in the past few months, it's really driven by Tron and Ethereum. And what the interesting thing here is, Tron and Ethereum, they really do two different things in terms of how they move stablecoins. And as we know, Tron is primarily this peer to peer blockchain that people use to send B to B, transfers, P to P transfers. And Ethereum is really this defi driven chain where people use it for trading, lending, et cetera. And so it's really interesting to see that these two chains have really picked their swim lanes, if you will, and are both growing within these different use cases. And you can see, yeah, really, once again, supply on Tron Ethereum, and also these lower cost chains too. Arbitron, BNB polygon, really been driving supply recently, and we've actually been seeing a lot of these low cost chains come starting to raise money, such as plasma, which is really this low cost chain. Curious, your take on how do you think these low cost chains should market themselves and go to market? Anthony,
Anthony Yim 19:16
well, I think one really interesting one here, the number fifth, top chain with the largest inflow is polygon, I would say, at least in our little like crypto bubble here in America, I haven't heard of polygon too much in the last year, but as you remember from our recent Payment report, polygon has massive penetration and payments in in India, which is no surprise, because I believe the founders are are from India and and so that gets me thinking, like, maybe there is a, like, localized chain kind of play here, where it's like, hey, maybe Tron is the chain that serves the. Asia and, you know, Latin brick, brick country use cases and, and maybe Codex or Ethereum, you know, serves the the West, the Europe's, the Americas and, and so maybe that's, that's one way.
Andrew Van Anken 20:14
Yeah, for sure, we definitely see, you know, regional adoption of different blockchains, especially in, you know, when transactions are posted on a timestamp, often we see, you know, Tron really spike during Asia hours. But, you know, have not as much as activity in the united states and Washington countries. And we do have to mention, you know, Solana has been losing a bit of supply recently, after really a meteoric run in the past year, most of that actually supply that's being burned came from binance actually burning over one and a half billion dollars of USDC, not exactly sure you know what they're doing there, but it could be, you know, seeing less demand for some different types of trading activities on Solana. But we do want to note Solana has still had this absolutely mirror rise in the last year, and is the one of the third largest chain the stablecoin supply right now. So you're
Anthony Yim 21:06
saying that even though USDC has been going up in supply and binance, they're also simultaneously burning a bunch of USDC, but specifically just with Solana, yeah,
Andrew Van Anken 21:17
exactly. So a lot of these exchanges, they see demand for different chains, and so oftentimes they'll move money back and forth to different chains. So for example, you might see a transfer from Kraken on arbitrum back to Ethereum, if more people are shifting from arbitrum to Ethereum. So they try. It's almost a supply and demand game here. But yeah, so maybe binance was seeing less activity from their clients on Solana, and so they moved it somewhere else. But yeah, always ebbs and flows. And then if we cut this data by stable coin issuer, we can see, you know, once again, tether is the dominating force here, followed by circle, they have over, you know, 85% plus of all stablecoins Outstanding. And so those two issuers really continue to be the driving force here. Curious, your take on it? Does anything jump out to you?
Anthony Yim 22:09
No, I think this is still exactly what we expect it. There's this, like duopoly right now in in crypto. And I think the cool thing here is that the other, the other category, is growing. And so, you know, I think that's, that's where a lot of you know, new we're seeing new issuers pop up day in, day out. I think every, every week there's a new issue. And it's interesting also to see that supply go up. And I think, you know, we'll have to see if it stays around. But I'm very excited to see kind of how it all pans out? Yeah,
Andrew Van Anken 22:41
we've been seeing a ton of innovation in stable coin land, everything from Delta neutral yields to auto rebalancing of lending pools. There's, you know, it feels like it's still, still so early here. And lots of innovation can come out between how people earn yield, how people make transactions, et cetera. And so here, when you when you look at all, when you look at the top coins, how they've gained and lost. Right now, we're looking at a chart showing that, you know, usdt gained over, you know, $5.5 billion in supply in the past month, with circle around 1 billion. So you really see that you know that shift, or that you know new demand coming to circle, tether, and then a whole bunch of people experimenting with different stable coins. Now let's dive into some emerging trends of where we're seeing different stable coin adoption in the past year. And recently, Artemis, castlon, Avengers and dragonfly released a survey of stablecoin adoption, actually, of many different types of countries. Anthony, you want to walk us through that survey and just give a brief overview of what we did. Yeah,
Anthony Yim 23:45
for sure. More specifically, this is on stablecoin payments. And so frankly speaking, you know, we as a data company, we were, we were sick of people asking us, hey, you know how much stablecoins are being used for payments? And we didn't have an answer, because a lot of this data requires it's off chain, and requires working with the stablecoin players and PSPs and orchestrators in getting real, real volumes that they're transacting. And so like, why not just ask them for the data and anonymize it? And let's try to add a lot more clarity to this industry. And so, so So for last three months, we've been embarking on this journey to work with as many stablecoin PSPs in the world, to basically size the real stablecoin payment volume out there. And so I'm excited to say that now, as of two weeks ago, we released a support that shows some pretty incredible stats, and so I know the biggest one is B to B volumes. We asked the all these PSPs to send us data for the last two years, and the numbers has been staggering. It's been up 400% year over year. Monthly volumes are around. 3 billion. So it's close to, I think, like, a $70 billion run rate annualized. But since it's growing so much, you know, reality, I think by the end of the December 2025 we're gonna see maybe closer to 90 or 100 billion in annualized runway. And I think that's, that's super exciting, right? It's like, again, in a various dilemma. It's like, if the numbers are small, don't, don't get me Don't get me wrong. But going at this rate, I think in a couple of years, people will not be doubting the efficacy and relevance of stable coins.
Andrew Van Anken 25:32
Yeah, in a market where I think visa and their 2025, investor day quoted B to B payments at, you know, almost $145 trillion so England, we could have years and years of unprecedented growth in this category and really not even touch the surface of B to B payments. So it's pretty fascinating to see, you know, the launch of this type of market, and now moving to something just totally, completely different, we have synthetic stable coins return to all time highs. So you might be thinking, what is a stable synthetic stable coin? So we're looking at a head chart here of the amount of supply of synthetic stable coins over time, and it's mostly driven by a stable coin called Athena, which does something a little crazy. So back in the days of early crypto trading, there was an exchange called bitmex that existed, and users could deposit money onto the but they could only deposit Bitcoin. So if people wanted to take a vacation, which God forbid you do in crypto, and they wanted to be whole dollars, what they would have to do was they would have to sell short an offsetting amount of bitcoin. So they would hold maybe $50 a Bitcoin, they would short $50 a Bitcoin. And so this would almost create this delta neutral like strategy, where your amount of money wouldn't change no matter what Bitcoin did, but you would be essentially flat, but you would also be earning a yield. Because what would happen is, if you were paying to be the opposite end of a trade, you would be collecting what's called a funding rate. And so Athena launched early in January. 2024 got off to a still start, but now we're seeing this like absolutely huge explosion now by Falcon, USD and many different other types of, you know, stable coins mimicking this strategy. My own theory is that people are now, you know, as these government yields across the world slowly going up, and you can, kind of, like, create this almost synthetic dollar that, you know, doesn't have any exposure to governments. And you're kind of, and I know it sounds corny, but creating this, you know, internet type yield, where you don't have to worry about, you know, hey, what's the difference spending going to be? It's, it'll be interesting to see. You know, will these types of stable coins hold up over market conditions? And, you know, Are people really, you know, that upset with, you know, governments that they're going to be moving money here? But certainly, one that we wanted to highlight. Well, I
Anthony Yim 28:01
think that the one, the thing that I'm curious about is whether the supply is correlated to, like, trading activity. Presumably, it must be right, because if, if there's not a lot of trading activity, I'm imagine, the rates go down and there's less incentive to hold on to USD like, I remember when I was farming Athena, like, a year ago, the rates were just, like, very volatile. And, yeah, I think I'm curious, like, if this increase in supply, is this a correlated to, just like, there is more yield right now, or is it increased adoption? You know, I think it'd be cool to, like, sort of break us down further.
Andrew Van Anken 28:40
Yeah, exactly. You. If you want to earn two additional basis points on yield, do you want to take into macro crypto trading? You want to take all these into factors into play. But certainly, there's a market for them, and it's really, it's really amazing to see this, this growth. Well,
Anthony Yim 28:56
why do you think? Why do you think this works? Now, I feel like there have been a bunch of these synthetic stable coins for a while, and I think a couple of people have tried it before, Athena. What about Athena? Made it made it work? Yeah,
Andrew Van Anken 29:09
absolutely. So probably now you have a situation in crypto where there is so much liquidity to take on this amount of stable coins. So you know now we have so many different exchanges. Hyper liquid works across numerous different types of exchanges. And so, like, really, like, you have these, this, like, huge amount of liquidity that can stomach this. And finally, we'll, we'll throw last, a very different one at you. Here we're looking at p to p transfer volume of non USD stable coins. And so one thing that we tend to take for granted is that 99% plus of all stablecoin supply right now is in USD. And while there's a very small amount of non USD stablecoins, some of these stablecoins are starting to get traction. So for example, circles, eurocoin has been seeing an increase in trading volume. They. Turkish Lira coin. By lira has also been seeing increased adoption. Indonesian currencies have also been seeing increased adoption. We could ask the question of, why now? Or do we think that these non USD stable coins will proliferate? But it seems to the question that everyone's asking, you know, how do these non USD stable coins get get to even 1% of supply? I
Anthony Yim 30:20
think the answer is kind of simple. My mom was a pharmacist. She lives in Hong Kong. She has like, a Citi Bank Account, like she in theory, has nothing to fear about holding any other currency, but she actually saves entirely in US dollar. I think this is a good illustration of the fact that despite the political turmoil in the United States. The United States is sort of the, sort of the most stable economy and the most stable country in the world. And there's still a lot of, like confidence in in the US economy. And so I think that extends to almost everyone in the world, and that that cements, at least for now, this, like dollar appetite in the world and that, I think that it's as as simple as that everyone knows what the US dollar is. Yeah, completely makes sense. Well, thank you, Andrew. I think that's all time we've got for today. Thank you so much everyone for listening and watching. Andrew, where can people find out more about
Andrew Van Anken 31:15
you? Yeah, you can follow us at Artemis on X or LinkedIn, and hopefully I try and respond to all the DMS that come our life.
Anthony Yim 31:23
And if you haven't already, please subscribe to tokenize on Apple, Spotify or whatever podcast application you like to use. Finally, if you enjoy this and you want more, leave us a review. It really helps us and others find the show. Stay stable everyone.